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Simply question for TIFFany users. In what areas do you think T3 is superior to Photoshop? Unfortunately I've never used the app but I'm sure there are functions that it handles more powerfully than PS and I would like to elicit some opinions. Thanks in advance.

There's a loaded question...

I had to make a decision earlier this year to buy Photoshop ("supported" by Adobe) or TIFFany (unsupported); I have a license for PhotoShop 5, but I dumped Classic, and I'm on a student budget. I downloaded the PS Elements demo installer, which hung on the first try and worked on the second. After that, though, I couldn't figure out how to use it, and the online help didn't help.

On the other hand, after going through the T3 examples, and actually using it, I was able to do some fairly sophisticated (at least to me) work with it. TIFFany is Cocoa, and after using OS X since Public Beta, the interface makes sense. Photoshop's interface sucks, and is incredibly confusing to someone approaching it for the first time. It does convert many more image types than TIFFany, but I can use GraphicConverter for image conversion.

My favorite features: red-eye removal, four-point mapping, custom actions, and the batch manager. I'm not sure that it is necessarily more powerful than Photoshop, but the power is much more accessible to me.

Yes it is Adam. Thanks for the reply. I'm not hoping to start a war or anything because what is paramount to me is hearing the experiences of each of you. If some of us find TIFFany does a particular feature better than PS and someone disagrees with that then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I will be watching to see how T3 holds up under Tiger. If it holds up well I will buy it because I think when you lock your brain around one UI principal such as Adobe's. You swill struggle when that next paradigm comes. I want to remain fexible as possible since I'll be programming someday soon and creativity is so vital.

I have a copy of Photoshop Elements and it has given me no problems. I also have a demo copy of Tiffany 3. I have found Tiffany 3 very difficult to grasp and I am still waiting for that eureka moment when it all makes sense. The magic wand tool in Photoshop Elements works very well and is far easier to work than the equivalent in Tiffany. There is a good post on the forum explaining the use of this Tiffany feature. There are some very good books written for Photoshop Elements which show you in detail how to use the different features. This for me tips the balance in favour of PSE, it is also a very good price.

I was going to buy a copy of T3 but after seeing what was coming in Tiger I have decided not to. For 2 reasons it's unsupported and it will not be updated to use the new coreimage. I would like Andrew to write something incorporating the new features of Tiger. I think Adobe are too far down the road with Photoshop to integrate quickly with coreimage.

Andrew was reluctant to address the image editing side in one of my earlier posts but this could tip the balance. All those who think Andrew should weave his magic and be ready to ship with tiger now's the time to apply pressure.

I love the idea of Core Image. I think it has a lot of potential but I'm ready to hear about the limitation so I know the full picture.

How much of an image editing app is apply filters? I would assume that a good portion is but there is a lot of "glue" that needs to tie things together.

Another good choice would be Omnigroup. Their UI for Omnigraffle Pro is gorgeous and might carry over to image editing nicely. Or of course Andrew could catch spark and whip something up

I've really wanted to get into Tiffany over the years, but like Blond, the light hasn't gone off for me yet. I got Photoshop Elements 2 shortly after it came out, and it works well for me, except for performance issues (anyone else notice how long it takes Adobe apps to launch? I punted Reader 6 because it was ridiculous; Panther version of Preview starts up in a snap, does most of the same stuff, and doesn't do that full screen thing ever). Also, I got PE2 from Amazon with a rebate that made it like $30 or $50 for me in the end. Even with the "student discount" now available from Stone, Tiffany is a bit more money. Photoshop does have the advantage of more tips and tricks out there, whether it's books (I like Kelby's "for Digital Photographers" books) or magazine articles.

I agree that cross-platform compatibility will probably prevent Adobe from using much in Core Image, except maybe as a plug-in or something if there's something to be gained that way.

I do think it's a shame that Tiffany won't get real upgrades. I would have like to have seen it get a bit more polish for X; some areas look to me too much like it's still a NeXT app (not that was bad in its time, just that we've moved on and so it sticks out). It would also have been nice to see it get tweaks like just happened on these forums for Create where the toolbar got added, guides got polished, etc. Oh well.

I would say give Tiffany a shot and if it works for you, go for it. You can do free trials of both (well, you could of Photoshop last time I checked, but I haven't looked since I bought it), so you don't lose anything as long as you try them before they run out!

I think what TIFFany can basically bring to the table are two things: 1. more directness in the UI, and 2. its orientation towards batch and compound editing.

TIFFany is arguably more versatile than PS but it's a steep learning curve once you go outside the preset actions. TIFFany kind of assumes that you are doing a lot of similar work on many images, that you often do a workflow or sequence of things to an image, etc. which is why they have the action catalog. The idea is that you're editing pictures more than you're creating them from scratch. Caffeine always preferred to all it an image processor rather than an image editor.

However, the jump between the preset actions and customizing them is often great. Photoshop simplifies what's going on behind the scenes, and TIFFany will simply expose them to you. This means that TIFFany can be a lot more flexible and sensitive to exactly what you want than PS, but at the cost of being a lot more technical under that first layer of the UI. The UI is simple conceptually because the tools are treated the same. PS on the other hand, differentiates between things like palette tools versus menu items (blur tool/effects or masks/quick masks for example). It has a lot of different types of tools that aren't interchangeable but in themselves they're easier to figure out. TIFFany's tools are all perfectly interchangeable and work the same way, but they therefore require a lot more exposition about what each one does in itself.

From my perspective in 3D modeling, it's like the difference between working in Form Z and working in 3D MAX. 3D MAX has better presets and has a very clear, procedural way of working. It's also so long in the tooth that some fairly everyday things you do for modeling and rendering take a few steps to do, and aren't really that intuitive. Form Z has lousy presets and offers so many user settings and choices, both hidden from view and available at once that it has a steep learning curve. People think xyz can't be done in Form Z but it can be done in MAX. In reality, Form Z has tons more options for how you structure, build, manipulate and represent your project than 3D MAX but MAX is set up for what people do most of the time and it's very opaque after that. Photoshop has some circuitous ways of getting everyday things done since it's been built up over old ways of doing things for so long, but it also offers simpler interaction with some other more common tools. Beyond that, it's fairly opaque about what it's actually doing. It's procedural, and people know how to use its structure to their advantage. TIFFany is so transparent, technical and extensible about what it's doing and how many ways to do things that it's a bit overwhelming.

Philosophically, I prefer the reward of using Form Z or TIFFany in the long run, but for most people, it's probably not worth the investment for them, and they probably won't take advantage of a more flexible and interactive structure.

I suppose, an app with the "simplicity" of Photoshop, Photoshop6-CS are nice sweet pieces of meat... with the Option to work with the tools the way TIFFany does (to some degree there is...) would be great. In this enter the Gimp... and then.. Seashore.. only because it's looking to be a Cocoa Gimp. Seashore, however, even it's fledgeling days.. sufferes from GUI issues... TIFFany's GUI has less pannels! Photoshop Elements doesn't really compare to Photoshop CS... i think with Tiger Psp Elements will be obsolete, on a mac. yep, i saw the '05 keynote address... Gimp is Pretty Good... but, works in X11.. which IMHO is ...pretty bad. Are both guys from Caffinesoft with Apple? if not... there could be a resurrection.. or at least.. there could be some aid to the other projects. Or... maybe, .. someone would approach Mr. Stone with a.... "If i were to provide a complete solution... could i jump on with Stone Design as apart of the Stone Studio?" We'll see...

starty, if you saw the MWSF'05 keynote, you know that iPhoto '05 is already putting a hurtin' on PE. If you need to do stuff like detailed retouching, combining images, etc., no, you need PS or PE, but for overall image fixes, the new iPhoto has it. Heck, I'd say it looks better than PixlNHance (sp?) which more or less was targeted to do the same thing.

I don't know if we'll get a TIFFany from Apple since it would compete with PS, but I expect this trend of editing within iPhoto to keep growing. I know I'll be using PE less once I get iPhoto '05.

Well, the UI thing usually has to do with workflow. Obviously, Tiffany is Cocoa. That alone, makes a few things simpler. Which is why there are competitive aspects in that respect. Yes, there is a lot of power, in both apps. Please, don't "overlook" the UI importance, that's one of the reasons why we're on macs, remember? Again, TIFFany has a lot to offer there, but even with humble Seashore, i select with the magic wand hit delete and voila, a selection is gone. I'm on to the next thing. I have the option to go beyond the "simple" is there and i can tweak the tools parameters. TIFFany is a tweak Master! Well, so is PSCS.... PE is nothing. It's very entry level. PS CS is a pro level app. I'd say, TIFFany was a pro level app. So, If you can, let's compare these two apps. TIFFany is end of lifed, but the source hasn't been released. Seashore is nowhere near the level of TIFFany, but, it loads in 10 seconds. This already has some buzzing. We'll see how it goes, as more features are added.

PSCS has a lot of power, can work with a great deal of plug ins, and has a great development, and user base. The only app that seems to come close to some of the effects in some of its more rudimentary plug ins is Intaglio. Has any one done anything like the flamingpear.com plug ins for Tiffany, or with TIFFany? Please, show me. I'd really, like to see. What about EyeCandy solutions? You may say... "well, those things can be reproduced in actions in TIFFany". Where can I download them. As a User, a designer, I need it to happen yesterday, for my clients' sake, my company's sake and for my job... no my career's sake. Can anyone offer Tips to use TIFFany as is done with Photoshop User, MacDesign, Digital Art, MacAddict.... MacWorld................MacHome? ...er, PCWorld?

When we compare, these are some of the things that have to be touched on. What about Corel or even PhotoLine or Graphic Converter, which can use PS plug ins. Corel is an "industry standard" for many sign shops. they have their own CorelDraw as well as Painter etc... they can use Illustrator Plug Ins.

Then again, there's Core Image. But, alas... they may all tap Core Image's power. You have to keep the end user in mind. They, are your customers. And many...i'd even say most.... (definitely, not all) aren't morons. People make their choices. Let's see why.
(i love the way i get a little "button" in the scroll bar to import this text with Omniweb! ...er, didn't notice it anywhere else.. i'll be looking!) By the way, this isn't an "argumentative" post. I just am thoroughly, intrigued by this topic, and by the previous discussion. Please, let's do go on. This is how work get's done. By the way, I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE TIFFany's shared Actions! our should i say CAFFEINE software's shared actions! Cool. I think these are what Core image is.... so, I'll love them in Tiger. so, is Core Image the upgraded Tiffany UI?